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subject: Evo, vs crea,

497 replies on 34 pages. most recent reply: Mon, Aug 27 8:06 PM by cactus2

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CoolDude

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Re: I haven't read all of this but...   posted: 04-Nov-03 22:38   »» 
There is a difference between evolution and adaptation. If something adapts to it's enviroment, you can not call it evolution. This is a site that will show you many quotes from important people that you may not have expected. For example, There is a quote from Sidney Fox that shows that not even he/she believes life can just happen from natural stuff.
http://www.why-the-bible.com

Also, you can't just believe that all this stuff happened millions of years ago. I'm sorry, but there are several things that disprove that fact, and none that prove it. One example is the sun. The sun is constantly shrinking (I think it is about a foot every hour). If you figure out how big the sun was several million years ago (simple math), you will see that no life could exist on the Earth. Also, I don't see how you could just believe all this unproven information that these scientists nowadays are saying. How could the population have drifted so far off realism and settled on these theories? None of them can be proven. If they could, then we wouldn't be arguing about them. I myself have a hard time believing any of this c-r-a-p, yet it is now common knowledge among us.

Now, there is the issue of the Bible. I cannot believe there are atheists among us. Honestly, what do you think will happen when you die? Do you just sit there and wait for the rest of eternity? That "religion" doesn't solve any problems. I don't know about you, but I find that pretty boring and out of the picture. If you think about it, who started the Bible? Did Moses? Did Jesus? No. Many people have written parts of it over time, and created it. Now, what are the odds that all of its prophecies are coming true, along with all of the prophecies of Jesus? Also, if the Bible is just a long book, then why can't ANYONE disprove it? Why has no one come to prove all of it false? Why do so many people spend so much of their otherwise free time to debate about it? After all, it's just a book, right?

I don't know about you, but my religion has made me very blessed. My family is extremely prosperous, and I am very happy. In fact, every (dedicated) Christian I know is happy. But, when I go to school, I see all of these lost people, who have no true religion or beliefs. They think I am crazy for not cussing. And, look at them, do you think they are happy? They obviously don't look or sound happy. They get into trouble and crave attention...It's horrible. There are hardly any people now in the Christian club, and many people now only use terms like God and Jesus when they are swearing. It is pitiful. Hopefully, you aren't the same.

Still, though, more and more people are being lost. I know several people who have given in to peer pressure and become fools. But, I am trying my best to help my friends and classmates to stand strong and fight peer pressure.

But, this topic is about evolutionism versus Creationism. I personally despise evolutionism. I don't see how anyone can be naive enough to fall for that. All of those famous people who work for evolution have their doubts. Darwin himself said that he cannot prove that one species ever turned into another. Also, life cannot come from nothing. The universe cannot come from nothing. Nothing can come from nothing. It never has, and it never will. Also, Im 100% sure that none of you can possibly deny what I am saying if you are brave enough to research it impartially. Trust me, a lot of people have tried, and none of them can disprove the Bible or God's word. The writer of Ben Hur decided to stop the "myth" of Christianity once and for all by writing a book that disproves it. Two years later (while still writing his book), he was so convinced that Christianity was the way, that he let the Lord take over his life. He then went on to write Ben Hur.

Now, I leave you with a quote from Keith Green, a legendary Christian singer and songwriter:

"You know you're gonna find out that He's the way, no matter which way you choose."

Blueyoshi321

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Re: I haven't read all of this but...   posted: 04-Nov-03 22:44   »» 
If nothing can come from nothing, and God created all, where did God come from? And just wondering, where did you hear that the sun is shrinking? Why has no one proved that the Bible is true?

CoolDude

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Look it up   posted: 04-Nov-03 22:58   »» 
Somewhere I heard that God is OMNIPOTENT. Don't try to understand him; you never will. You cannot understand infinity, either. If God is omnipotent, than I will just take his word for it. And, if God made physics, I think he can defy it. By the way, many people have proven the Bible to be true. If you try hard enough, you will surely find out for yourself. Don't rely on me to solve all of your problems. You now have the problem, solve it (I did).

BTW
What do you think will happen to you when you die?

Blueyoshi321

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Re: Look it up   posted: 04-Nov-03 23:27   »» 
If he is omnipotent, can he make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it? Yes? Then there exists something he cannot do. No? Then there exists something he cannot do. Is he omnipotent? No.

If the President and Congress made the laws, I think they can defy them.

When I die, my consciousness will fade away. My brain cells will stop firing, and my heart will stop beating. My breath will cease. And the world will have lost one of its most intelligent people (okay, that last statement wasn't completely true.) Eurgh, that was creepy.

CoolDude

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Are you just a chemical reaction?   posted: 04-Nov-03 23:52   »» 
Actually, everyone and everything has the ability to contradict itself---except for the Lord. His omnipotence comes from his inability to contradict himself, making him perfect. The Lord cannot sin, He cannot allow anyone to cross the gap between Heaven and Hell, and He cannot forgive the unforgivable sin (direct blasphemy against God).

If the President and Congress make a law and defy it, they could get thrown in jail. They don't create laws, they don't own laws, they merely document them. The Lord has His will and His word, and they are infinite.

Without conscience, do you exist? Technically, yes, but in your mind, no. If you don't have a memory, did anything happen? Technically, yes, but for you, no. If you are dead and have no concience or memory, how can it be that way for the rest of eternity? It would be like sleeping for so long you never wake up. There was no point in you living, and no reason that you were ever on the earth. You had no purpose. Well, everyone will die eventually. It is inevitable. When everyone is dead, would it matter what anyone did?

Try to think about this. Are you really going to accept that you had no purpose? That you were just a chemical reaction that did nothing? You would have no memory, no thoughts, no dreams. You basically never existed. How can you think about that without wondering, that maybe you did have a purpose. That maybe there is something after death.

Christians have something to believe in. That when we die, we will go to Heaven. In your opinion, which is better?

In one hand you have the chance for eternal life.

In the other, you don't exist, because you are just a chemical reaction.

Which should you choose?

I obviously chose the chance for eternal life. It's not hard to be Christian. You don't even have to go to church. Church is just a guide that helps you out. All you have to do is believe that Jesus is our savior and that God created us. That doesn't seem very hard now, does it?

Well, I obviously can't and shouldn't force you to choose my beliefs. It's your decision. I'm merely telling you about your choices, in case you didn't know them in the first place.

evilgoatfiend

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 05-Nov-03 00:42   »» 
I going to pull my last card in order to fully join this conversation. I am an atheist. I only pretended to be a weird christian offbranch before to try to gradualy ease it in.

First about the sun, are you so blind as to think that the sun is just as small as it looks? One foot an hour is nothing. Even so it may have that rate now, but could it be said that it was the same oh so long ago. Also the creatures would have adapted. And greenhouse warming was less. Do you think all the scientists of the world would have overlooked that if it were a problem. Leave the science to them, and check your facts before you declare a foot is a lot.

Then about how you have so much sympahty for the "lost souls" of the world? Reality is shocking but at least it is better then delusion! An article (in some reliable news source i forget which), said that tranquility of religion shows up in the brain, does that prove that God has a real world effect? Absolutely not! It proves that every religious being lies to themselves to help them get through the day. It's no supprise that you get that holy feeling when you go to church and are inspired to "be good".

You're "programed" to. THe church is an expert repetition of propaganda, coupled with the bandwagon effect, tradition, denial and wishful thinking. Which is easier to cope with, that you're grandma is in heaven dancing with God or that she is as nonliving as a rock and more then that, she is insignifigant in the scope of things.

I used to be a Christian, and I felt the holiness two, then I realized the truth. Insanity isn't as far away as one my think, because you're already there, And what person in denial will admit it? Flawless, not hardly.

How many religions in the world are there? Doesn't matter, all of them believe their right, so what makes you think you've got the right one? Maybe the guys that wave sticks ijn the air and sing about the forest spirits have the right idea. Maybe the truth is all in one of those enormous consuming cults that just give all your money to a selfish indivisual (if he was God, who could argue?), or maybe its those who still believe Zeus throws down lightning from the sky. The point is, they are just as wrong as you are, they're just better at showing it.

Try the problem of evil on for size. If God is omnipotent, ominsecent, and good, and good opposes evil, why is there still evil? One philospher thought up a good answer but it still had its flaws. The "answer" was that some evil had to be allowed in the world to allow humans to have the free will in order to choose between the two.

That makes sense except when one thinks about the fact that there exists evil not as a direct effect of human sin. Also according to that logic, that means a perfect being is not free. Thus the oh so great God, is a prisoner to his own perfection. Thus no more then the equivalent of a force of nature, and why would such an imperfect-perfect being exist?

To add to that think about the non-free will theory. Not to detour but it was featured in the second matrix movie (which is about an atheist that shows people the truth), and if you have seen it it may help to think of it. The idea is that the same exact mind in the same exact situation would do the same exact thing (much like the reflexive property of mathmatics). Thus based on the processing of the mind, memory, and sensual input, the result will always be the same thuis predetermined and possibly simulated by a perfect device (don't say God because that implies we have no free will, but I'm willing to go there if you do). In that respect, we don't have free will and never will. Some solve the problem by giving us a "soul" that is personality and religion, but then we would be exactly in the hands of God, yet another dead end. The truth is while, we are all predeterminedly set in our paths, it doesn't prevent us from making descisons, just the ones we wouldn't make.

When I was a Christian my answer to the problem of evil was, that life was just to get us prepared for heaven, so that weare properly disiplined, but still people die that are sinners in the eyes of Chrisitianity, even though God is all-powerful and all-knowing.

The Bible is a funny thing, because whenever a Christian is proved wrong they will always fall back on their weakest agreement "But the Bible says so, And my mommy said the Bible was right". Well, tjhey don't say it quite like that, but thats what it comes down to. I ask the question why should the Bible be right. Is here any kind of evidence that points to it. Do just think that because enough people fell for it that it must be real? Please tell I'd like to know, because right now it has about the same credibility as the ancient egyptian "book of the dead".

About miracles must be either an alteration of physics, or a predestined coincidence. the later example, doesn't have to break the laws of physics, but it implies that everything that happens is the absolute best thingthat could happen at any given time. You can't honestly believe that, and the fact that I don't, provess it to be impossible. Breaking the laws of physics would create such a noticable effect in the universe, like space-time ripples. True God could clean up the remenents of the miracle well, but it would also mean that everything that happens he let happen because he felt that it did not need a miracle, and that means perfection equal to the hand of God himself, and neither atheist nor Chrisitian believes that.

On evolution, adaption really just a weaker form of evolution, or rather, evolution over a shorter period of time, thus with less effect. and if evolution is as unlikely as you think, why do all the scientists believe it? Science has credibility that religion doesn't, because they have reason behind their beliefs.

You speak about choosing whether or not we will live eternally and whether or not we have importance. But don't you see? If we are right, you don't have a choice but to face it or not. We are strong enough to accept the truth, are you? Or will you dig a hole in the ground, clasp your hands oiver your ears and scream that it isn't so?

Not to underestimate or devalue your belief, but if you find ourself disbelieving in God, don't do anything stupid. If the transition is hard, talk to us (we havn't commited sucide yet). I'm not trying to be mean I'm trying to be nice.

Blueyoshi321

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Re: No, I'm not. I am a sentient being.   posted: 05-Nov-03 00:42   »» 
If he can't contradict himself, how is he omnipotent? :)
Chemical reaction is a bit strong of a phrase, but I see your point.
I'd rather have the afterlife, but that's "rather". We're talking about the real world here. In my view, when I die, I die.
And by the way, it's not eternal life, just eternal existence (you are dead :P).

Blueyoshi321

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Re: No, I'm not. I am a sentient being.   posted: 05-Nov-03 00:45   »» 
You posted that while I was typing! You type fast!

evilgoatfiend

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 05-Nov-03 01:09   »» 
No, I had 7/8 of that typed, but for some reason it wouldn't send, so I copied it, closed the window and came back, and saw his new post (probaly the reason I couldn't post), so I pasted what I had copied, and added a response to what he had said.

CoolDude

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Find faith, what do you have to lose?   posted: 05-Nov-03 02:11   »» 
Blueyoshi321, well, now that we know that there seems to be no reason to live, and that you, or anyone would prefer an afterlife over nothing, don't you think that it is worth it to try and receive that life? If you have nothing to lose, then why not try and gain another life after death? Why not go on a little blind faith and see if maybe you COULD end up with another life. Just research the Lord and the Bible, and try to open your eyes to all of the possibilities. IF you look into it and if you get convinced that you CAN receive another life after this one, isn't it truly worth the wait? Trust me, if you do all this, and work hard for it, you will experience a true understanding, and have meaning on this world. Plus, what have you got to lose? Isn't it worth spending a couple hours or days researching if you can receive an eternal life? It's all up to you, as I can't force anything, but I urge you to try and find out the truth for yourself, and, trust me, it will be worth it.

Blueyoshi321

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Re: Find faith, what do you have to lose?   posted: 05-Nov-03 02:24   »» 
Now you're crossing the line. It would be nice if I believed in an afterlife. But I don't. Do we have any proof for it?

Blueyoshi321

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Re: Find faith, what do you have to lose?   posted: 05-Nov-03 02:25   »» 
Whoops, accidentally clicked "post".

I'm just saying that if I thought it possible to have one, I would strive for it. But I don't. It would be nice, though, if it was possible - but I am firm in my belief that it's not.

CoolDude

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Re: Find faith, what do you have to lose?   posted: 05-Nov-03 03:25   »» 
Please don't force yourself to believe that there can't be an afterlife just because of our current understandings of science. If there was a way to prove that there was an afterlife, then we would all do whatever we can to get there. To me, it is proven. Unfortunately, I have no physical proof, but I am 100% positive that it exists. That's why we are here; to use our own free will and decide if we want to have eternal life or the bad kind of eternal life. And, there will be a point where it is too late to turn back. Please, give it a try, because if you don't, then you won't have any chance at that life. If you don't believe in it, then you have a 0% chance of getting there. If you do, then you can have up to a 100% of getting there. Because, if there was a 0% chance of it, then I would do anything I can to stay alive. But, I do not fear death. Actually, I await death. This life is just a test, it is just God's way of letting you decide if you really want another life. The reason God allows sin and life to occur is to let us decide for ourselves, not to bring us into pain and suffering. All of us will face suffering, but instead of having it let you down and ruin your life, you should see it as a trial, a test. It is the only way to let us decide for ourselves. I'm here to help everyone see their options, and know that, though death is inevitable, it isn't a bad thing---at ALL. When I die, I know that another life awaits me, one that is better than anything here. So please, reconsider. I know there is a part of you that is willing to do some research, and find out exactly why I care about someone else who I don't even know about. I sincerely hope that you realize that I am spending a lot of my time here to try and help all of you who are reading this to understand why I am doing this. I really want you to see God, or at least try. But, please, don't just leave and not care, just try. YOU WILL NOT BE DISSAPOINTED, I promise.

lonelyswedish

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 05-Nov-03 04:53   »» 
i don't mean to reinvolve myself in this conversation with this post, just to add a little food for thought. if you wish to know my opinions and beliefs on these matters, read some of the earlier pages in this thread.

anyhow, back to what i was going to say. there have been throughout history a number of logical proofs of the existence, or the nonexistence, of god. most or all of them have, howver, been somehow shown to be false whichever side they opposed. many of them are very interesting arguements, and i encourage anybody who wants to research them to try and find the fault in the logic themselves before you read what other people came up with.

my favorite of the proofs -for- the existence of god is the ontological arguement. just plug that in to any search engine, or go to your library and i'm sure you'll find plenty of reading on it. it is a deductive proof, and very difficult to argue against. for the record, i myself couldn't find any fault in it, and i'm not sure if i yet agree with the fault i read about (I believe it was Kant that came up with it, but i'm not 100% sure).


just as an add-on, a brief explanation of what a deductive proof is, in case anybody doesn't know.

basically, it takes a set of statements which are true, and links them together in a logical chain to come up with a new statement.

example:

all glizmbits have whizzles.
the thing on the table is a glizmbit.
therefore, the thing on the table has whizzles.

evilgoatfiend

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 06-Nov-03 01:37   »» 
The afterlife arguement is a good one I am glad you brought it up. Actually in the case that you described, I am 100% sure that I am right, and am willing to bet my life on it, more then that eternal bliss. This puts us a direct opposition one of us must be wrong. Because of my beliefs, and because I was once a Christian AND saw your side of the arguement in addition to my current, I to myself declared this one to right.
But just to play with your idea, I am so devote to the truth of life that even if there were a 40% chance of your opinion to be right in my mind, I would rather devote my energy to what I know for sure is for real, because right now while at any given time I would love to surround myself in denial and pretend in free, I cannot let myself because it is my moral obligation to give sweat and blood to this world, rather then lie aroung lesurely. I would feel guilty, but you don't right now, because the way it is set up, your are not supposed to know, so you have no problem with be ignorantly happy, in fact you believe that it is your reward for all the work you did.
Real work has no rewards, otherwise it is an investment, or a lucky benefit.
I have stuff to do I'll be back



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