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subject: Evo, vs crea,

497 replies on 34 pages. most recent reply: Mon, Aug 27 8:06 PM by cactus2

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axilux

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 01-Jun-03 19:29   »» 
Wow, this discussion just blew up.

I have nothing against faith as a phenomenon, it is just another proof for man's fantastic fantasy and creativity, our will to search and explain everything. But religion disturbs me.
The only guys who seem to see that all religions just are different interpretations of the same explanation are buddhists.

I would like to remind everybody in the evolution of religion itself through time. From a materialistic religion, based on rituals, temples and such, it is now turning more and more into just a way to see life and death. Therefor, religion have started to place God inside Man, so that finally, religion will turn into a sort of self-confidence, as some sorts of buddhism have turned into. It is pure faith and no religion.
In the end, it is up to man to change her situation, to awake from her childhood.

/ax

neoaetas

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 02-Jun-03 23:49   »» 
hi everyone, me again. I would truly like to take back that second-to-last post. I was half asleep at the time, saved it to Word, then just posted it without rereading what I wrote. No, I don't believe that evolution and creationism cannot mix. I think that it is entirely possible that a "God" could influence evolution or even that the first life was created, then evolved. What I do not agree with is belegkano's and bignoisegoboom's version of creationism. What I have gathered from the posting is that they believe God created the world, then created animals, then man and since then, nothing has changed. I have 2 problems with that. One, they seem to be misinformed on the principles of evolution. Two, they just seem to be following faith blindly.

You cannot expect to make a good arguement for either side if you are misinformed. Belegkano seemed to have no idea about the scientific principles behind evolution, radioactive dating, or even that usually theories have proven truths behind them. I haven't posted in a while because this thread was going very rapidly, but here goes.

Belegkano, please. I think you could be more objective if you could see this. Just as there is evidence of creationism (various world religions, Abraham, Jesus, Muhammed, etc.) there is also evidence of evolution (carbon dating, fossils, evidence or current evolution, like the grand canyon squirrels, etc.). Just because you believe in the bible, doesn't mean that the scientific evidence is made up by a bunch of idiots and just because I believe in the scientific evidence, doesn't mean that the Bible was written by a bunch of high monks (if you didn't catch it, that was a pun). They could both be right, none could be right, or one or the other could. I think the only reason you are saying the evolutionists haven't proven you wrong is that you refuse to believe us.

If you don't think evolution is a fact, consider this:

The reason that humans haven't changed MIGHT NOT be God, it could actually be evolution like someone said(sorry, i haven't had a chance to thoroughly read all the messages-I wanted to get in a message before it was too late to reply). The reason that humans have not changed in many thousands of years is that evolution is slower than that. Also, consider that through natural selection, what are humans being selected for to evolve? Maybe disease resistance(not physical), maybe for beauty (have you noticed women today are thinner than greek sculptures), or maybe idiocy(have you ever heard the quote "The world level of intelligence is a constant, but the population is always rising"?).

I have to go now, bye. My name is spelled neoaetas (Latin for "new age") and please excuse my poor spelling, my kitten was biting my fingers. Peace out, may chance be with you!

Yankeeabe

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 03-Jun-03 07:21   »» 
I agree with Neo, and agree with him more since he retracted his last post.

Chance on the other hand I dont agree with. Here is a scenario which has a higher probability then our so called chance.

An emtry room with a computer.MSFront page installed on this machine (Thats something the universe didnt have). I leave the room for a week. When I come back www.sodaplay.com has been made, and on it one of my amazing models has been created. From nothing.

The universe had nothing, at all. The odds of intelligent life comming from nothing, no matter how many years passed by, are still very very low. The odds are of me creating a 14 line shakespearian sonnet by spilling ink on a paper are grander then us being made from nothing.

But I still beleive evolution was possible, but it was put in place long before it even knew it was.

For those who dont beleive in evolution because it conflicts with their religion. Watch 2001 a space oddesy. And every time you see the big black monolith, put a cross(or jesus, or muhammad or God) on it. I think that will explain my thoughts.

Actually you do the same thing neoaetas, watch that movie tell me what you think.

axilux

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 03-Jun-03 16:43   »» 
I agree too that there is absolutely nothing in religion and belief that is incompatible with each other. As the question of chance has been asked here, I think that there is two views to see the universe.
The first view is to watch the world with your mind, to see what the world looks like, without any room for feelings and questions besides logic.
The second view is to watch the world with your hart (not literally), to see what the world feels like, inside you.
These views are science and belief; no one is more right than the other, and to explain the world, we need both the knowledge of the physical world, and knowledge about man herself, about her soul.
So if Yankeeabe don't believe in chance, his view is by hart, and physics says he is wrong. His view is not therefor less right than any other view, it is just more of a way to describe his feelings, his inner view.

/ax

vgwhiz

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 04-Jun-03 10:18   »» 
The passage I quote here is from "In Quest of the Universe" by Karl F. Kuhn and Theo Koupelis. Page 586, if you really want to know. '=) It is quite lengthy, but I think that on a topic as complex as the beginnings of the universe, a complex response is warranted. Being an astronomy book, it has references to astronomical events. If you're unclear or unsure of the events mentioned, go to http://google.com, type in the unclear words, and in the links returned you should receive all the information you'll need. Here goes:


Science, Cosmology and Faith

"Where did the matter and energy of the big bang originate? Science cannot answer that question at present. In fact, it seems possible - perhaps likely - that it will never be able to answer that question. For if matter existed in atomic form before the big bang, it did not carry information with it through the big bang. Thus matter itself can tell us nothing about its pre-big bang history. Actually, it is meaningless for us to talk about things "before" or "at the moment of" the big bang. Time did not exist until after the big bang. Because of the extreme conditions involved during the birth of our universe, the known laws of physics do not allow us to start describing its evolution until 10^-43 seconds after the big bang. After this moment, we can consider the nature of space and time in the same way as we do today.

"Does this then mean that science can say that there must be a creator, and that science has, after all, found a need for God? An individual scientist may believe this, but science itself cannot use God as the explanation for the big bang. Science cannot use God for any explanation. It has been said that science avoids God. It does, indeed. The reason that science does not use God for explanations is basically that science has been successful in explaining the material world without reference to a God. Science, by intention, uses natural causes to explain natural effects.

"We say that science is successful in its method because scientific explanations of the workings of the material world have led us to further understanding of that world. The fact that the success has come without reference to God indicates that the material universe seems to be describable by completely natural principles.

"What about cases where science is unable to find an answer? If science, when it comes to something that it cannot explain at the time, were to explain it by reference to God, the search for an explanation would end. If Newton had used God as an explanation for why things fall to Earth, he would never have developed the theory of gravitation. If we use God as an explanation for the big bang, there would be no reason to look further for a natural explanation. Use of supernatural explanations would shut down science. History, hoewever, tells us that it is profitable to look for natural explanations. Supernatural explanations cannot be used in natural science.

Testability

"There is another reason that science cannot use God for an explanation, and this relates to the reason that traditional science does not accept creationism as a science: A theory of science must be able to be shown to be wrong. A theory must be testable. Every theory must be regarded as tentative, as being only the best theory we have at present. It must contain within itself its own possibility of destruction. The 1948 prediction concerning the cosmic microwave background radiation was such a case. If the background radiation had not been found, the big bang theory would have had to have been adjusted, or - if enough such contradictions appeared - the theory would have had to be dropped and replaced with another. This has happened many times in science. It happened to the steady state theory and to other theories we presented in this text.

"On the other hand, if science relied on a creator to explain the inexplicable, there would be nowhere to go, no way to prove that explanation wrong. The question would have already been settled.

"This is not to say that God might not be the explanation. Many people believe that a creator is the ultimate explanation of everything. Perhaps some questions, like the origin of the material for the big bang, simply cannot be answered without reference to a creator. But in that case, science simply cannot answer the question. The question is beyond the realm of science. Science does not deny the existence of God. God is simply outside its realm."

neoaetas

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 04-Jun-03 23:33   »» 
{claps and nods with gusto}

Bravo! Smashing old chap! In my opinion, that is the best post so far. I agree with you totally, agwhiz. That is, assumeing, your opinion is that of that author. Science can not look to religion for its problems anymore than religion can look to science as to why God's son was a man (in Christianity). I agree some things could be explained by God, but isn't it more fun if you try to explain it a different way? How much effort and challenge does it take to point to a superior being as an answer versus experimenting and theorizing? I prefer cold, hard facts anyway. One of the reasons Europe stayed in the Dark Ages way back when was because people stopped trying to explain their surroundings and accepted that "it was God's will"

P.S.- I made a program on my graphing calculator that will tell you how many hours old you are. HAHAHAHAaaaahhhh.

vgwhiz

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 05-Jun-03 05:55   »» 
For the longest time I was an atheist. God sounded like a lot of hocus-pocus, with no proof of His existence. Moreover, I lost respect to most - if not all - religions, because of how religions are able to control people. I have never seen a scientific fanatic try to suicide-bomb a church or school or mosque. Even today, religion seems to be a form of mind control, where endless followers from different mindsets all clash over who is right. By being an atheist, I totally removed myself from all of these, and what's more, I would not be biased with any religious views (for example, by not believing in creation I can look at things a lot more objectively, not having to worry about what God might think, or if learning about a certain event like the big bang was really not God's way). To this day, I look to science first, and obviously will believe scientific fact over religious views.

Lately, however (in the past 3 or so years), I've been thinking that believing in a creator has a lot of benefits. For one, the mind is a lot more secure with the unknown, being able to brush it off as God's work. Also, having a faith can make you live longer. This makes sense to me, because if you can't set difficult issues aside as the workings of a higher power, they can eat away at your mind and cause you more stress than you would otherwise feel.

rockingbacchus

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 05-Jun-03 08:45   »» 
well, im coming in WAY too late but here are my little thoughts (and please dont yell at me, i'm 13 but i have a passion for science and physics, but the library in a small town only takes you so far)

ok, if there is a creator who controls all, is all-knowing, and is the answer to all of the previous questions, why am i not religous? Why did god make me atheist? And if you tell me it's because i must make the decision myslef, why do i get people trying to convert me?

On a more scientific note, it was proven, after the catholic church accepted the big bang theory, that all matter didn't nessecarily start out as a singualrity of infinite density, rather, the matter would just have to be extremely close together.

Well, one thing that stands out, and many people have stated in this thread but some seem to not be taking in to account... and im just calling you on a technical... evolution cannot be proved. It can be disproved, and there can be evidence supporting it, but it will never be a fact.

On a lesser note, i dont quite understand how cold-blooded and warm-blooded creatures came to co-exist, could any body clear this up?

On the atomic level, it gets harder to beleive in purely scientific ways, what makes particles move so randomly, is there a succesfull feild unification theory out there, and, the big one... where did all this come from?


I, for one, beleive the answer is out there, waiting for us, waiting to be found, and it is a matter of time.

But im just 13, what do i know?

P.S. that struck me as funny... what begelanko said (sorry i cant remember anything, including this guy's name, its 2 am, i've been up since midnight reading and re-reading this thread in order to make the most coherent answer) about pretending to be a monkey and falling out of a tree... i know its mean but it made me laugh :D

rockingbacchus

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 05-Jun-03 09:24   »» 
sorry to bouble post BUT had a breif moment of mental clearness... and figured i'd nip this in the bud before the problem arose...


I have heard "creationists" try to use the second law to disprove evolution. This law states that in a closed system, the entropy count must always rise, effectively ruining the theory of evolution on earth, right?

Wrong. The earth isn't a closed system, its powered by the sun, so the entropy count doesn't HAVE to rise, although it might.

A breif explanation of entropy, in a couple of simplified manners (the way i first got it)

Entropy, strictly speaking, is energy that can't be used. The theory of entropy was proposed in 1850 by a german scientist who's name escapes me at the moment. Entropy can also be defined as disorder, although this definition is not complete as it doesn't state that entropy is energy. This is released as energy of heat.

Suppose you have a box with a jig-saw puzzle inside. The puzzle is all put together, perfectly in order, entropy free. Now suppose you shake the box. Now, there is a chance that the jig-saw puzzle landed perfectly in order again. But, there are many more possibilites of disordered patterns than ordered ones, so the chance of entropy, or disorder, is greater than that of the chance order, so the entropy will probably rise inside the box.


Another analogy is when you drop an egg on the kitchen tile. You see it drop, and it breaks on the floor.

But while you went to get a mop, did you ever consider, that you dont get a new egg, you must take another.
Now picture the egg as an ordered environment. You, the dropper, are a souce of power/energy for the egg. When you dropped the egg, you applied energy to the egg, making all the "stuff" move around inside, jumbling it up like the jig-saw puzzle. The egg before it was dropped represents an entropy free environment, while the egg post drop represents the results of entropy to an ordered environment: it is ruined, and it can never go back.

So, yeah. There ya go, a 13 year old's take on basic laws of matter.

5th_Earth

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 09-Jun-03 10:05   »» 
Not to stop the discussion, but what does this have to do with sodarace?

belegkano

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 09-Jun-03 23:42   »» 
5th,

To be honest, nothing at all,

And to continue I must say this
I do believe were all quite intelligent here,
maybe some more than others.
But lets face it, we’re quoting.
If one can't think for him/her self, what is the point? The last umpteen post were nothing but poo, mine included,
Being one of two on a team I see that this is going nowhere fast.
I’ve dropped my slang and my frivolous quotes and as of now thinking for myself,
No more thoughts, quotes, or books by anyone/thing/being other than yourself quoted on the board,
Forget the title, let's discuss the origin of the univers, that is the true question, isnt it?

Bk.

belegkano

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 10-Jun-03 01:02   »» 
Rockingbacchus,

Now to put this to the test.
Assuming Go made every one with FREE will, don’t u think He lets decide for yourself, and if so, why can’t some one disprove you if they have will too?

And I understand your confusion for I feel the same yet I have found the answer (for in definition there can only be one answer or many variables), in the same light creation is only a faith based on the oldest written documents, yet it rings of nothing to disprove it other than its origin, the Bible.

On the other hand, all other theories are disprovable in the same way.
Where did matter come from?
This question blows all other theories out of the water,

Except yours, you believe in a god, But not The God, big difference.
The God stated that he didn’t evolve His creation.
However, your god evolved and directly influenced the development of his Creation.

This clears up our disagreement pretty well.

And if I did fall out of a tree, it probably knocked something loose, cause I probably did and can’t remember,




Now for Lonely Swedish,

I’m trying to be understanding, serious, and playful all and once, I now have word and i'm using it like an artist uses a hand/monkey uses a stick, depends on your belief.

Speaking of belief you have your own, use it.
Why must there always be an in-between, Rock believes in one way, I another.
We share nothing more than a God.
Yes that categories us. No, that doesn’t put a common thread between us, other than we are human.
Also, creation holds zero ground in evidence, phewy, there is much more fact to support the bible (my theory is thus deemed “bible” do to Rock’s middle ground theory) than any thing else, such as 4 billion years is to much time for the earth to survive.
10,000 yrs. Is just right.
And the global flood that has been proven to had taken place is only explainable by the bible (my belief).
The world is black and white, good and bad, east and west, right and left,
There is no way around it.

Now an argument is a disagreement of ideas, If u don’t like the way I’m north and south, up and down, leave.
I’ll never see it your way until I’m PROVIN wrong, it’s my personality, and you are the same way. Admit it.

To rant further,
If you can’t trust what Darwin said, why do u trust what Darwin did say, it is the “Darwin’s theory of evolution”

P.s. I’m a monkey I need a banana, Oops I slipped, (Aaaaaaaahhh)

Bk

lonelyswedish

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 10-Jun-03 07:19   »» 
belegkano,

you say that there is evidence for the earth being no more than 10k years old. i say that there is evidence that it is around 4 billion years old. i've given the evidence that supports my side. as i said before, radioactive dating of minerals from all around the earth supports this. however, you submit none of the evidence for your side, save that the bible says so.

i will concede the point that we are both getting our information from sources other than personal experience - mine i got from books written by accredited scientists, yours came from a book as well. the difference is, the evidence i put forth is supported by actual experimentation and documented research; granted, i am not providing that here, only saying that it has been done, but i assure you it has. the same cannot be said of yours. if i am wrong, prove me wrong. submit to me evidence that the world is only 10,000 years old.

you say 4 billion years is too long for the earth to have survived? why? you say 10,000 years is just right? why? evidence is what my argument has, and what yours lacks, unless you show otherwise.

you asked the question, 'why must there always be an in between?' in most arguments such as this one, there are 2 sides, each at opposite extremes. often, however, there is a middle ground in which it is possible to compromise the two points of view. for a scientific example, the world we live in truly is the middle ground. at one end of the scale is the very small - molecules, atoms, protons, quarks, and all the other various subatomic particles. the rules that govern these things are very different from those that describe our everyday experience. in an atom, it is impossible to know at the same time both the position and the velocity of one of its orbiting electrons. if i throw a ball with a known initial velocity and a known trajectory, it is a simple calculation to find the velocity and position of that ball at any time in its flight. the small world is governed primarily by 3 of the 4 forces - electromagnetism, the strong force, and the weak force. gravity has almost no effect on anything in the subatomic world.

at the opposite end of the spectrum is the very large: the solar system, our galaxy, clusters of galaxies. these things, in their relations to each other, are controlled mostly by gravity, with little influence from the other 3 forces. in our everyday experience, however, we get a mix of the 2 worlds. we see almost nothing of the strong and weak forces, because they grow extremely weak at even very small (subatomic) distances, but we experience the forces of gravity and electromagnetism all the time.

this is just one example of a middle ground common to everyone's experience. you say 'you have your own [belief], use it.' well, for the argument at hand i have not arrived at a conclusion as to what i believe. as i stated before, i am an agnostic, neither believing nor disbelieving in a deity. i'm not going to sit here and tell you that evolution was a purely natural phenomenon, along with the origin of life on earth. i'm also not going to argue that god created life and controlled evolution.

what i do believe, however, is that your extremist view is not reality. i base my beliefs on evidence. there is evidence that evolution has occurred. there is evidence that the world is 4 billion years old. from what i can see in your posts, you are basing your belief on faith alone. unless you submit evidence supporting your claims ("the bible says so" is not evidence), i will continue to think this. if the claim that i have just made is correct, then this argument is over. you may say that this is just your opinion, and my view is my opinion. this is true. arguments arise because of differences in opinion. in an argument, each side submits evidence supporting their opinion. simply stating, "i'm right, and this is my opinion," does not constitute and argument in your favor. i have argued my side, argue yours.

belegkano

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 10-Jun-03 15:57   »» 
Lonely Swedish,

To put it simply, half-life is not proper evidence for evolution as you see it.
Maybe God made every thing that way, I can’t explain why he did but he could have.
And if the earth was 4 billion yrs. old why is oldest tree only 6,000 yrs. old?
What killed ALL the older trees?
Why can’t anyone produce a skeleton of a human older than 8,000 yrs.?
Who invented laughter?
Who invented jokes?
Why do electrons orbit protons? What keeps them together?
Why are seashells found on all the highest mountains? What put them there?
And who invented God?

These are very interesting questions that nobody can explain.
Your precious half life/radiation is nothing more than a speck compared to these.
I respect your belief, but I don’t believe myself for a second.

And you act like these scientists are more like Gods than men.
So they right a book, big deal, facts are only expectable when one sees it for him/her self.
Yes my proof is merely more than faith in the oldest written documents, but you have to admit it more than what so guy wrote two yrs. ago.
Which makes us even when it comes to that.

Yeah, the Earth is neither huge nor tiny, but that has nothing to do with our argument.
As I see it we’re opposites, if one mixes two kinds of metal, don’t you make an alloy, something different than before?
Thus are beliefs, if mixed, you make something new.
It’s more creating than compromising.

Bk

Yankeeabe

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 11-Jun-03 01:06   »» 
Lonley just back off here man I dont think there is any way to have a valid argument with this guy

The Church itself beleives the scientists estimate on the earths age. Knowlage brings us closer to who made us, not denial.



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