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subject: Evo, vs crea,

497 replies on 34 pages. most recent reply: Mon, Aug 27 8:06 PM by cactus2

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belegkano

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 30-May-03 02:01   »» 
two for one,im sorry
God doesnt care if dolphines have five 'fingers'on there flippers,he made them that way to make us,(i guess)wonder,

dolphines(for crying out loud)dont even resemble monkeys,God made them to swim around and have fun,
there the only animals that do this,why only did theese animals(who have so much to fret about ,like sharks and food)seem noot to care?
according to wat u believe,they shouldn't

so look around for once and see God in everything he made

bk

belegkano

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 30-May-03 02:06   »» 
ohh the pond ting with the amebas,there cute,but its not reality, like tose evolving blocks
the haven't an imune system,internal organs eyes,ears noses,
they have been programed to evolve,like God might desided to do with us,bet yet he didnt,he says he didnt and he dosent lie

viciouschicken

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 30-May-03 03:22   »» 
Yankeeabe:

Sorry, I guess I wasn't specific enough. When I mentioned creationism, I meant to refer only to the kind belegkano and others believe in. I realized that there was a kind of creationism that could coexist with evolution, but after I typed all that other stuff, it sort of slipped my mind. :/ sorry

I think your view of creationism is a lot more plausible than the other kind (no offense, belegkano), although I don't believe in either one. I'd rather not get into a debate over it, though, since that would inevitably lead to an argument over the existence of God, and I've never seen one of those get anywhere.

By the way, it's refreshing to see someone so open-minded about religion, who obviously doesn't take everything the Bible says literally or unquestioningly. Thanks.

belegkano:

"creation and evolution wont ever mix,mesh,or blend together,in any way"

Suppose God created the first single-celled organisms, which then evolved into plants, animals, etc. over billions of years. Wouldn't creationism and evolution mix then?

"evolution cant fit into 10,000 yrs or so of history,it takes to long"

Um, life has been around for more than 10,000 years. A lot more. There is abundant evidence to prove this. Heck, we've found human skeletons much, much older than that.

"not only that ,its impossible to inter-breed two species"

Evolution wouldn't require species to inter-breed...
There's a lot of grey area between species. Scientists have discovered situations where there are 3 or more kinds of a bird (A, B, C) where A and B can breed, B and C can breed, but A and C can't. Species aren't always clearly defined. A segment of a population of one kind of organism can thus evolve through this grey area towards a new kind of organism. (I hope that made sense; it's kind of hard to explain.)

"God doesnt care if dolphines have five 'fingers'on there flippers,he made them that way to make us,(i guess)wonder"

Wonder about what? Unless I'm misunderstanding you, it sounds like you're suggesting God is intentionally trying to mislead us. I'm pretty sure that contradicts a big chunk of the Bible.

"dolphines(for crying out loud)dont even resemble monkeys"

Dolphins' ancestors and monkeys' ancestors split family trees a long, long time ago - long before our ancestors split with monkes' ancestors. Dolphins and monkeys split after the five fingers developed, but before things like legs. I wouldn't expect two species that have gone through millions of generations separately to look much alike.

"God made them to swim around and have fun,
there the only animals that do this,why only did theese animals(who have so much to fret about ,like sharks and food)seem noot to care?
according to wat u believe,they shouldn't"

A few problems with this:

Sorry, but I doubt you're an expert on dolphins. Neither am I, but I'm quite sure there's more to them than what you see on Flipper and at Sea World. They feel pain, they get hungry, lonely, angry, and sad, they are capable of killing. Just like any other mammal. (I don't have proof of this, but I can't imagine it being otherwise. If you look hard enough, you'll probably find some stories supporting this.)

Also, dolphins aren't the only playful animals. Monkeys can be, too. And humans. Yes, humans are animals. I'm sure most mammals have fun from time to time, just in different ways.

And why would evolution stop a species from being playful? Maybe an earlier breed had no fun, and they had no will to live. (I think dolphins are intelligent enough to have such feelings.) Then, gradually, more playful dolphins happened to be born, and they had a much better chance of living and making offspring, so they took over.

"they have been programed to evolve,like God might desided to do with us,bet yet he didnt,he says he didnt and he dosent lie "

Please don't respond to arguments with blind faith in the word of the Bible or by saying things like "Don't question God's will." When you do that, I don't know why we're having this discussion. Just try to have an open mind and at least consider what we're saying.

And last, but not least, sorry about your arm. I hope it gets better soon. I hope I haven't sounded too harsh or anything. It's just that you're not looking at all the evidence, and that bugs me for some reason.

I'm sure you're all tired of reading my ridiculously long posts by now, so this'll probably be my last in this thread, unless it looks like it's getting somewhere soon.

SirDougie

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 30-May-03 13:35   »» 
It's about faith guys. If there's no god, what else is there to beleive in?

belegkano

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 30-May-03 15:35   »» 
its more than faith,
its truth and fiction,to give all of u a bases of the bible,ill quote it"gen,1:1,in the begining,God created the heavens and the earth,"
heavens refurs to the stars planets and other space stuff,not paridise
its a statement of who made wat,the passage goes on to explain wat He did in detail,this is why God "evolve" us
gen,1:20-23 "20and God said, let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that has life,and fowl that may fly above the earth in the firmement of heaven21and God created great whales,and every living creature that moves,which the waters brought forth abundantly,after there kind,and every winged fowl(bird) after his kind;and God saw that it was good.22and God blessed them saying,be fruitful and multiply,fill the waters in the seas,and let fowl multiply the earth.23 and the evening and the morning were the fifth day"

notice it doesnt say...
"and God created tiny creatures and blessed the saying be fruitful and multiply the waters,evolve and brach out and recreat thy selves"

he created fish anbd whales sepret and created birds to fly,
if u wish to make sure im not lying,read the bible,the first book called Genesis
its the book of beginings

God creates lad animals,including monkeys,next
then the frist man and woman,and aked them to name the animals,how in the world could monkeys name them selves,and there future selves,humans named them selves ,the monkeys and dolphines and lions and lizzards and ardvarks and ...
we still are nameing animals
how one can beleive God and evolution at the same time confuses me,becuose god denies evolution.

bk

belegkano

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 30-May-03 15:37   »» 
its more than faith,
its truth and fiction,to give all of u a bases of the bible,ill quote it"gen,1:1,in the begining,God created the heavens and the earth,"
heavens refurs to the stars planets and other space stuff,not paridise
its a statement of who made wat,the passage goes on to explain wat He did in detail,this is why God didnt "evolve" us
gen,1:20-23 "20and God said, let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that has life,and fowl that may fly above the earth in the firmement of heaven21and God created great whales,and every living creature that moves,which the waters brought forth abundantly,after there kind,and every winged fowl(bird) after his kind;and God saw that it was good.22and God blessed them saying,be fruitful and multiply,fill the waters in the seas,and let fowl multiply the earth.23 and the evening and the morning were the fifth day"

notice it doesnt say...
"and God created tiny creatures and blessed the saying be fruitful and multiply the waters,evolve and brach out and recreat thy selves"

he created fish anbd whales sepret and created birds to fly,
if u wish to make sure im not lying,read the bible,the first book called Genesis
its the book of beginings

God creates lad animals,including monkeys,next
then the frist man and woman,and aked them to name the animals,how in the world could monkeys name them selves,and there future selves,humans named them selves ,the monkeys and dolphines and lions and lizzards and ardvarks and ...
we still are nameing animals
how one can beleive God and evolution at the same time confuses me,becuose god denies evolution.

bk

Yankeeabe

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 30-May-03 19:02   »» 
Belgkano you are missing the point.

I too beleive in God, and the Bible.

But what if evolution is Gods way divine way of creating us ? The bible says

"let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that has life,and fowl that may fly above the earth....."

That quote says that fish and even birds came from water. Can you explain how that makes any sense? It does if you apply evolution as the source. How do you know that Gods devine way of creating us is in fact evolution?

The only difference we have from animals is reason. Maybe Adam and Eve are the first people to have reason.

Belegkano pretend you are the pope during the dark ages and you beleive the earth is flat. The same thing applies to how the church believes in evolution, soon with more proof (there is already a ton) the pope himself will beleive in evolution as Gods perfect way of creation, and it is perfect.

Creationism and Evolution on the same page. There is so much more to it. We should be talking about the origins of the universe, that question far preceeds this one.

neoaetas

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 31-May-03 00:39   »» 
i think one of the problems (quite obviously) is that people are grouping. What I mean is that we are comparing whether or not God created everything and whether or not organisms evolve. To me, this is like debating whether a car starts on its own or whether it runs on its own. One is an event, one is change. I think that the question, rather, is either of these 2 sets:

1.) God created the 1st organism/the first organism was a product of amino acids which gathered into proteins, which way after that evolved into cells.

2.) Chance or natural selection powers evolution/God powers evolution

I also don't think that god should be associated with chance or that he should be generalized. Depending on your religion, God is a very concrete thing, relatively. There is also the chance (please don’t bite me, religious people) that your faith is the “wrong” one. What I mean is maybe the Greeks had it right and there are many gods, or maybe Jainists have it right. Except for faith, you don’t know. Therefore, it adds complexity to creational evolution theories. If you say that God controls evolution, what if many gods control it? Or maybe gods/god is just a chance happening that happened to get in control of the universe. There are so many variables; the only thing that is really sure is the evolution itself is a fact.

That is of course, if you believe the Bible, then everything on earth is as it always was.

I realize I’m straying off the subject, but one of the reasons that pure-bred creationism can be so easily defended is that you can claim “God did it for his own reasons”. For pure-bred evolution, you can’t say “DNA/chance mutations/natural selection had its own reasons”. You could say that, like many people on the forum, that evolution IS a fact, but God controls it. To me, that is both taking the neutral ground and being stupid.

What scientific evidence is there of God? To my knowledge, none. No hard, solid, concrete, head of George W. evidence. You may say that fossils, DNA, and modern inferences are not absolute proof, and neither do I. They are just better than evidence of any god. Take Christianity. If you are judging on an archaeological basis, the Bible is a dirt source. It is definitely not a primary resource if it came from God, and it has been copied and rewritten so many times, who knows what it originally said.

If there is a god, does he really love all of earth and its organisms? If so, why is he continuing to let humanity decimate the environment? Surely, if god is all-powerful, he could stop us? Or does he not care enough? Even if he could get rid of humanity or stop it from hurting the earth, he couldn’t because it would involve using the “evils” of germs or force. So is god really all-powerful, if at all existent? You decide.

I forget who, but either Socrates, Aristotle, or Plato in one of their dialogues pointed out that what is pious to God may not seem pious by the reckoning of other gods or even humans. Truly, god is an ideological reflection of who humans want to rule the universe- themselves.

neoaetas

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 31-May-03 00:45   »» 
by the way, belegkano, try this:
before you post, either preview it to proofread your work, or at least paste it into a word processing program like Word to spellcheck.
It would make your posting a TON easier to read. It's hard to debate someone who talks in another language.
Thanks home-dog ;)

belegkano

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 31-May-03 03:12   »» 
i just said the bible doesnt say that he evolved beings,he made every creature seperatly,and ur ignoring the time it takes to "evolve",u say it ursleves,why are u ingoring direct blows and repeat urselves?
u confuse me this way,

bk

Yankeeabe

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 31-May-03 03:12   »» 
""""You could say that, like many people on the forum, that evolution IS a fact, but God controls it. To me, that is both taking the neutral ground and being stupid."""

I guess because Im so stupid that I dont quite understand that statement.

Charles Darwin the match starter of the evolutionary process, believed we have a creator. Stephen Hawking, Albert Einstein both believed in evolution and creationism.

No one exept the most religious of peoplemake God/Creator concrete. The people I mentioned below call say the word God as a simplification of a creator. It doesnt matter if he was the father of Jesus or Uranus himself (zeus' grandfather). Ultimatly it is just a starting point for where everything started and an ending point on where we cant find out more about.

I dont think you could even try to isolate yourself even more then you already have neotas. There are more then many books and papers written by credited scientists that bridge the invisable gap between God and evolution.

bignoisegoboom

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 31-May-03 03:18   »» 
if evolution is so real, explain to me this:

1. there is no evidence of it. only claim and idea, even darwin himself said it was IMPROBABLE!
2. how come there are still apes? did they just miss the train or what?
3. i believe in a creature conforming to it's environment, God made it perfect like that. creatures ADAPT not CHANGE. note that the african cultures seem to be more succeptable to sickle-cell anemia.
4. Humans have kept documents for millions upon millions of years of how they look. How come we haven't evolved again? are we hibernating? i think not!

bignoisegoboom

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 31-May-03 03:20   »» 
ahh! i left something else out.... african cultures became more succeptable to sickle-cell anemia because of all of the malaria and so forth

belegkano

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 31-May-03 03:25   »» 
but there all the ideas of man,not God,why cant u graspe that?

im only 14,looking for a `1st car,got summer school,worry about pimples,
yet its clear as rain,God created,man wishes it evolved,they dont mix,

now read the bible,not books by idiots,
that should be ur foundation,not "Tarzan"

bk

bignoisegoboom

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 31-May-03 03:30   »» 
Belegkano is right. consiter this. We are but humans. and nobody seems to understand that there are limits, and no human is the almighty. nobody will know the answers to all these questions. i believe a great man philosopher said it best when he said, and i quote "True knowledge is accepting that you know absolutely nothing." there is no solid fact on this earth accept God himself, and the very second in which you live.



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