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subject: Evo, vs crea,

497 replies on 34 pages. most recent reply: Mon, Aug 27 8:06 PM by cactus2

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belegkano

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Evo, vs crea,   posted: 21-May-03 13:14   »» 
>If something is random, and if you believe in the many-worlds-interpretation, you see that somewhere in time and space, life must origin.
Axilux,Neoates,

To ur last comment,
Must he be living (I mean breathing, human like or from some other planet)
Or may he be a supreme being,
Were talking about God here so be reverent as much as possible,

(Ill sum sum-up all questions now so keep reading)

>If evolution is not true, then how do you explain mitochondria? One day the supreme caretaker of universal affairs just one day decided to "make" bacteria produce 90% of eurkaryotic energy? I don't think so.

Sure, why not, have u seen giraffes?
Man the weird; He obviously has a sense uve humor, no,
He probably was haven fun, and said “ill just do this and maybe ill do this and what if…”

(Next)

>Why don't you believe in evolution? Are you just very religious? If you are, I respect that, but if you just don't think that complex beings could result from the changing of previously simple organisms, then why not? I don't understand people who just refuse to believe evolution.

If ur thinking I'm narrow minded by now ur odd,
How can I it’s a theory now come on if u can 10 evidences that I cant disprove uve got me,
>The only way you could really get more solid evidence than we have is with a time machine. The fossil record proves that over time, organisms are altered and "change" into ones more adapted for their environment.
The fossil record doesn’t even provide u a stick to swing let alone a staff to lean on,
Nothing relates,” some r bigger than others there for there the evolved version’,
Ill make it easy, 1 in-between animal that has been discovered in a pit, no monkeys cause they get weird as they age, say a Rat-o-pothes-thingy and it has to be in between,
Ill let u use it so…

Love this conversation so write back
Bk



axilux

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 21-May-03 14:20   »» 
I love this conversation too..because I have disproved so many religious things before...
Let's see where to start....if something orgins, (and in my text I mean "gods" too) then, by your arguments, it must have been created by something. Your arguments fail already; if god exists, he must have been created. There are two logical truths about the universe: either it has always existed (or something, as god) or else, it spontaneously orgigined out of nothing. I believe the first of these, so I believe that there is no beginning, no "first toucher". You could say universe is a process, and life is a structure inside the universe.

Answers to your answers:
1. Yes, also gods.
2. He sure have a sense of humour creating disbelief, is this His plan too?
3.First give me 10 arguments for your solution.
Evolution has been accepted and proved for over 100 years.
4. There is a billions of fossils and links between species found. I suggest you to read some scientific litterature or simply look at a floor made of limestone. There you often can find lots of fossilised ammonites.

"Can God make a stone so heavy he can not lift it" or to say it the Homer Simpson way:
"Can Jesus warm a microwawe burrito so hot he himself could not eat it".

/axilux - agnostic

belegkano

»» models

Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 21-May-03 16:21   »» 
> disproved so many religious things before...

u meet ur match

> Let's see where to start....if something orgins, (andin my text I mean "gods" too) then, by your
arguments, it must have been created by something.

a miss Quote on ur part,God created time,there for time did NOTcreat god

> Your arguments fail already; if god exists, he must have been created. There are two logical truths about

no,not yet

> "first toucher". You could say universe is a process, and life is a structure inside the universe.

u have the forever part yet u have created a ring

> Answers to your answers:
> 1. Yes, also gods.

1 God, singular

> 2. He sure have a sense of humour creating disbelief,is this His plan too?

he didnt creat disbeleif we did in our twited minds

> 3.First give me 10 arguments for your solution.
: Evolution has been accepted and proved for over 100 years.
100s realy?creation has been aruond since the begining of time so there.
> 4. There is a billions of fossils and links between

3 ill answer next
4 Example please...

>species found. I suggest you to read some scientific litterature or simply look at a floor made of limestone. There you often can find lots of fossilised ammonites.

i have and i find it facinatinghow beutiful the creatures are,ive also studied many "scientific"
papers on the subject,i find ice age mammles to be my fav fictional animals

> "Can God make a stone so heavy he can not lift it"
or to say it the Homer Simpson way:
"Can Jesus warm a microwawe burrito so hot he himself could not eat it".

sure but at the same time it wouldnt hurt
he could lift it or not be able to,
with god everything is possible

Bk

belegkano

»» models

Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 21-May-03 16:39   »» 
>> 3.First give me 10 arguments for your solution.

1 the bible says so

if the Universe is that old...

2 o-rosion would steal to much land and life above sea woudnt exist

3 the moon would have float away lonng time ago or had collide with the atmosphere before it could gain orbit

4 life would have died of lack of needed orgins

5 the Earth would have spin so fast every thing would fling off,

6 its made up by some guy who disproved it on his death bed

7 humans should be able to mate with it ancestor so there for species could mate and gain off spring wich they cant

8 the core would the size of the moon or larger

9 outer satelites would be to far to orbit sun

10 its flawed

11 no one can call me a monkey and get away with it

neoaetas

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 21-May-03 19:53   »» 
belegkano, i'm not trying to deal low-blows or anything, but could you use spelling and grammar that are a little better? It's hard to understand you, especially when you meld sentences and use "IM" language.

I disagree with everthing you say. I'm going to ignore your post after axilux because I couldn'y understand it. First off, I think in a discussion about evolution, we should maybe have separate or designated posts about the creation of the universe and of life. Darwin did not write "The Origin of the Universe" nor did any archaeoastronomer write about the evolution of life. Let me debate your 10 "rebutts"

1.)Have you ever thought that maybe the Bible is a fraud or that in the numerous copyings and rewrites of it way back when the story was warped?

2.)I don't know what you mean that "E"rosion would steal too much land and take life away, so I can't refute it.

3.)Why do you say the moon would have floated away if it had no force to keep it in orbit? Contrary to some people's beliefs, artificial satellites stay in orbit all by themselves. And don't tell me the moon ways more because there is no weight in space, only mass.

4.) Did you mean lack of nutrients? If you did, tht is untrue. There is a reason nature has set itself into a system of food webs and material cycles. Nutrients from dead organisms' bodies are broken down by decomposers. Also, the ecosystem has a steady supply of energy from the sun.

5.) The Earth would not have "Spun so fast that everything would be flung off". in addition to the centripetal force of gravity, the spin of the planets and the earth are kept constant by the laws of physics. If every Bible on earth burned, it would still spin.

6.) Did Darwin disprove evolution on his deathbed? I find that hard to believe. Besides, that disproof has been "negated" by the fact that hundreds of other scientists hae proven it. I hope that you were not referring to LaMarck. Use/Disuse was stupid to begin with

7.) Humans would not be able to mate with their ancestors. They would be different species and the definition of a species is a group of organisms that can mate and produce fertile offspring. Besides, even different species can produce offspring if they are closely enough related. For example, a donkey and a horse equals a mule and a tiger and a lion equals a liger (no joke).

8.) What does the core (of the earth?) have to do with evolution. Besides, we barely know how big the core it. It might be the size of the moon.

9.) Satellites don't orbit the sun, they orbit planets.

10.) How is it flawed? Because there is no solid proof? What proof is there of creation? Answer: An old book and a con artist in Palestine claiming to be the son of "God".

11.) You are a monkey. I just got away with it. Come on, get me back. What's that? You can't? Oh well. Besides, evolution does not say you are a monkey, merely that over time, a species of monkey has exposed to the correct circumstances to warrant increased intelligence, opposable thumbs, and to stand erect.

And in reference to something I could understand in your first passage, creation has not been around since the beginning of time, only since humans drempt(Sp?) it up, same as evolution. The only difference is that evolution, a more complex, envolved THEORY (just like creation) took longer.

neoaetas

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 21-May-03 20:03   »» 
oops, sorry to double-post, but i was proofreading my post and the post message button got clicked. There are a few misspellings, like coudn'y, way, tht, and has. They should be coudn't, weigh, that, and was. Also, there is a sentence in number 8 that should be a question. Remember belegkano, please make your reply coherent. Thank you.

axilux

»» models

Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 22-May-03 16:36   »» 

> 1 the bible says so

A couple of shepherds 2000 years ago...what a source of knowledge. If you believe logic, give me an argument why the bible should be more right than the Iraqi information minister.

> if the Universe is that old...
>
> 2 o-rosion would steal to much land and life above
> sea woudnt exist

Vulcanic processes constantly create new land, we can see it in large scale even today.

> 3 the moon would have float away lonng time ago or
> had collide with the atmosphere before it could gain
> orbit

There is massive evidence (space debris, traces in stone) for a giant collision with earth long ago (don´t remember when). It made earth a giant fireball, and also threw out a massive part of earth in space, there you´ve got your moon. It was long time ago, but not so long ago, and the moon is actually moving away from us.
Ever heard of stable orbits?

> 4 life would have died of lack of needed orgins

So the mathematically random 'creatures' in computer simulations should be dead. I do not know that death was possible that way.

> 5 the Earth would have spin so fast every thing would
> fling off,

Why? The Earths rotation have always been stable, because of inertia, no motion stops or accelerates in space.

> 6 its made up by some guy who disproved it on his
> death bed

Darwin. He did not disaprove it as far as I know, and a theory is never the work of one person. There is always reasons and evidence behind. How do you explain 100 years of constant proving of the theory.

> 7 humans should be able to mate with it ancestor so
> there for species could mate and gain off spring wich
> they cant

Who´s said that? Not evolutionary theory at least. When species have different number of chromosomes (or other distinctions in their genome) they can't mate.

> 8 the core would the size of the moon or larger

Hm. Why haven´t anyone thought of that before? And as gravitation decreases with the inverted square of the distance, the moon-earth masses don't need to be the same at all.

> 9 outer satelites would be to far to orbit sun

No. Gravitation may be a weak force, but even galaxies rotate around each other. They knew that already in the 19th century.

> 10 its flawed

Correction: the Lamarck-Darwinian form of the theory may be flawed. But it has been corrected and changed a lot of times since then.

> 11 no one can call me a monkey and get away with it

Why do we then find thousands and thousands of hybrids between man and ape? If fossils are just fantasy, then explain where they came from. I've seen lots of fossils myself.

As you see, I have an answer to all of your statements. They are flawed scientifically and some have nothing to do with evolution.

If you believe in science as general, I would welcome a little more logical evidence.

If you don't believe in science, I laught at you, because you are sitting in front of a computer made by science itself. It is proof enough that at least scientific theory works.

/ax

neoaetas

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 23-May-03 23:57   »» 
Bravo axilux! You did a better job of rebutting than I did, although you seem to be able to understand him better. I suggest that belegkano fiddle with that darwinpond program. Also beleg, a good model of natural election is artificial selection. If you take one of the examples of the breeding of dogs, then if god created all species, why would he allow man to create variations on dogs and wolves? Apparently, he didn't like it too much when people tried to reach heaven (Tower of Babel (SP?)). Also, if god got so mad when people made a large tower, why hasn't he knocked all all of our skyscrapers yet? I await your response.

neoaetas

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 24-May-03 18:57   »» 
weird filtering program... skysc.r.a.p.ers

Yankeeabe

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 25-May-03 17:06   »» 
Never have a ventured out of the model maker forum, but listen to this real quick.

Why is evolution always associated with atheism?

I beleive in evolution, but seeing at how much of a genius system it is, I cant grasp the idea that it was designed by chance. I beleive there is a creator, and one way he did things was evolution. Its too perfect.

Plus, there are a multitude of things that go on in the universe which the greatest scientists study and they become Theists.

Even Darwin beleived in God!

"[I am overwhelmed by] the extreme difficulty, or rather the impossibility, or conceiving this immense and wonderful universe, including man with his capacity for looking backwards and far into futurity, as the result of blind chance or necessity. When thus reflecting I feel compelled to look to a First Cause having an intelligent mind in some degree analogous to that of man; and I deserve to be called a Theist" (Darwin)

So, instead of looking at evolution and science as a way to prove God doesent exist, I try to figure out the possiblity that a perfect system like evolution could be made out of nothing. Then I realize it had to be designed.

axilux

»» models

Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 25-May-03 21:12   »» 
Of cource, there is nothing in evolution that cannot cooperate with a believe in God.
The most important thing for me is that a believe is not the same thing as a religion. Everyone should have their own believe, their own "religion", because you have one whether you like it or not.
Then, personally, I think that the problem arises in asking the question "who made that?". It is a natural question, but if something is made by someone, then who made him/her? And if he/she created time, was the creating a process?
Big questions.
/ax

Yankeeabe

»» models

Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 25-May-03 22:14   »» 
Those Big questions are the right of even the most theistic and religious people.

But axilux

At the end of every evolution debate someone must ask those questions to prove the theist wrong. Those questions and our ability to ask them, amaze me . From nothing to something out of nothing. Thats what the universe is in a nutshell.

Everyone, askes "who made that?" as their final questions, knowing they will never get a satisfying answer. But my beleif in God is the "Who made that? " question itself.

Instead you should see God as a question not as an answer. God is what we as dumb humans write as the peroid in the sentance of the universe. An atheist might say, "Aliens" or "No one knows" but ultimatly the answer is something we can never find out.

Religion calls it God, Science calls it chance. To me they are the same thing.

viciouschicken

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Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 28-May-03 01:34   »» 
Just felt like throwing a few more pro-evolution arguments out there.

Whales and dolphins have five "fingers" in their flippers, just like humans and many other land mammals. Fish don't. Evolution could easily produce this result, but why would a creator do this? Just to confuse us?

Humans have several internal structures that serve no real purpose, like the appendix and tailbone. (I'm not a biologist, so feel free to correct me on that. I'm fairly sure that we do have something that serves no purpose, although you could argue that we just haven't discovered it yet.) According to evolution, these are simply remnants from an earlier stage when they were useful, or just random chance. Why would a creator deliberately give us useless organs?

We've gone through the entire human genome. Vast areas of our DNA are inactive, completely useless. Furthermore, we share something like 99% of our DNA with chimpanzees (anyone know the real number?), even the inactive parts. The only reasonable explanation I can think of is that these deactivated parts are remnants of an earlier evolutionary stage; they once created proteins that were useful, and when the environment changed to make them useless or detrimental to the organism, they got deactivated over generations. I think this alone is irrefutable evidence that we have a common ancestry with other primates.

Unless you don't believe in genetics, which would, quite frankly, be silly, common sense shows that organisms will evolve over time. Those with characteristics that make them more likely to live long enough to breed successfully will tend to pass on their genetic traits to the next generation.

As others have stated, we have plentiful fossil records showing the gray areas between species along the evolutionary chain. Archeopteryx (sp?) was somewhat like a bird, somewhat like a dinosaur. And, of course, there are the numerous stages of human-like primate development. This evidence is pretty solid.

I read a science magazine article once that I wish I had saved. It basically refuted every argument ever made against evolution. It said that scientists have created new species in the lab (not surprising, since bacteria are constantly evolving to survive our antibiotics and antibodies), and that they have traced the evolution of the eye (in response to the argument that evolution could not create such a complex structure, since half an eye would be useless (which I would argue against)).

Remember that when scientists call something a "theory," it doesn't mean they have no idea if it's true or not; it just means that there isn't 100% proof (which is technically impossible). With all the evidence we have, scientists and those who believe them are about 99.99% sure that evolution is true. At least, if creationism is true, it would seem that God is trying to deliberately mislead us, which would definitely contradict the common conception of God.

If you can give that much evidence to support creationism, I will be thoroughly impressed and amazed.

Yankeeabe

»» models

Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 29-May-03 06:17   »» 
Once again what you are doing is seperating evolution and creationism as if they cant coexist.

That quote by Darwin himself(and what I beleive) says the process of evolution is such an effeciant way of creating intelligent life that it must have been created by something.

To say we came from apes does not conflict with someone who is a creationist. But to say the complex DNA structure of any living being and the process it went through from nothing to something, occured by chance...... that will make a creationist disagree.

Pro-evolutionism is fine with me and Im a creationist. MY question is what created the process of evolution, and what created that and what created that and so on and so forth. Ultimatly there is a creator, Call Him God, call Him Aliens, call Him science. They are all the same thing.

One of your models will never know how it was created in the tiny space it is in compared to the rest of the world It will never realize it had been put together by something so much more intelligent and different then itself. It can never see the Z axis. It is so limited to itself that everything it thinks it knows about its surrounds is so far off that it makes no sense.

Confusing Huh?

belegkano

»» models

Re: Evo, vs crea,   posted: 30-May-03 01:51   »» 
yet they cant,
one cant be in France and China at the same time,u have to move between them,
if u r a true beleiver ud understand that
even if ur reliegen is evolution,creation and evolution wont ever mix,mesh,or blend together,in any way,

now that im outa the hospital ill resume our chat,(i broke my arm,fell off a plamtree)
to sum everything up, its all a matter of time,
evolution cant fit into 10,000 yrs or so of history,it takes to long,not only that ,its impossible to inter-breed two species,there are respected christian scientist in the science community,
no they dont beleive in evolution,but,they try to understand creation, from atoms to suns,
now its difficult to type with one arm,so be patient for a few weeks

bk



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