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subject: Question for Ed: Soda maximum speed?

7 replies on 1 page. most recent reply: 26-Sep-04 21:58 by mathchamp

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StefW

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Question for Ed: Soda maximum speed?   posted: 09-Mar-04 11:34   »» 
For some time I have had the suspicion that something limited the top speed of soda models. I have come to this suspicion because different models have similar top speeds for the same tracks when the height is allowed to change.

After some experiments I have come to the conclusion that the maximum speed of individual masses in soda is 20 pixels/frame.

I have done the following experiment: in Sodaconstructor beta, I have dropped a mass from a height and saved the XML file just before it hit the ground. The gravity was set to maximum and the friction to 0. I found that whatever height I dropped the mass from, the highest velocity was always 20 pixels/frame.

This means that the maximum speed for rolling models (amoebas, cars, turbines, etc.) is 10 pixels/frame. This is because the top of the wheel is travelling at double the speed of the wheel and the bottom of the wheel is not moving.

I have checked this maximum speed with many races in which I have competed and found that no real models have actually been able to travel faster than this speed. I have also found that many of the GA optimized models come quite close to this limit.

This means that if a racetrack is 3000 pixels wide, the theoretically fastest time is 3000/10 = 300 frames. This of course only applies to a flat track, because when the models go over bumps the effective travelled distance will be larger.

My question to Ed is: would it be possible to increase this maximum speed? Why is it built in? Is it because of numerical instability that the velocity needs to be limited? There is no physical equivalent to this except for the speed of light, but that is much much larger than the typical speed normal objects travel at.

It would be very interesting to see what the real top speed of models is when this artificial limit is removed.



ed

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Re: Question for Ed: Soda maximum speed?   posted: 09-Mar-04 13:04   »» 
that's a very interesting a well researched question! your suspicions are correct, we do have a very non-linear friction model designed to damp the inherent instability of our rather informal euler style of integration. It hadn't actaully occured to me that this might be a theoretical ceiling on the speed of sodaracers. While it might seem easy to change the friction model it would have worrying implications as many models in the sodazoo rely on the peculiarities of the friction model, any change to the friction model would drastically change the behaviour of many pre-existing models. This is just the sort of issue that we will be addressing over the coming year with the Playforge project [ see http://www.nesta.org.uk/ourawardees/profiles/3857/ ].

StefW

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Re: Question for Ed: Soda maximum speed?   posted: 09-Mar-04 13:42   »» 
Thanks Ed for your quick reply.

I agree that changing anything to the soda physics would break many existing models. However, maybe in SodaConstructor 2.0 we could have better physics and a "compatibility mode" to keep existing models working. New models could even have a special XML tag to indicate that they use the improved physics instead of the old physics.

Would it be worthwile trying to decrease the Euler step size (do 2 half steps per frame or even 4 quarter steps per frame instead of 1 step per frame)? Although this would slow down the simulation, it would improve the stability and maybe even the need to have the non-linear friction model. Have you ever considered using other integration methods like Runge Kutta?

I think even if we remove the non-linear friction, the maximum speed will always be limited by the physics engine. An amoeba will not be able to do 1 full turn for 1 time-step in the physics engine and therefore I think the speed will be limited by the simulation time step for rolling models (although I have no mathematical proof of that).

What is your opinion regarding the theoretical maximum speed of soda models?

Mtaltag

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Re: Question for Ed: Soda maximum speed?   posted: 09-Mar-04 14:13   »» 
hi i'm new. can you help me contrict something

guest
Re: Question for Ed: Soda maximum speed?   posted: 09-Mar-04 14:14   »» 
go to my faq topic in the model maker topic

nog64

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Re: Question for Ed: Soda maximum speed?   posted: 17-May-04 21:54   »» 
Is this 10 pixles/frame or faster?
http://sodaplay.com/constructor/player.htm?&getmodel=nog64+fasttest1

nog64

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Re: Question for Ed: Soda maximum speed?   posted: 17-May-04 21:57   »» 
Also, I think that the limit is built in because
a: Physics instability, as you mention
b: Java processer can't handle it
c: The overall weight of masses and limits of gravity, friction, and k stiffness just can't go faster.
~N64~

mathchamp

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Re: Question for Ed: Soda maximum speed?   posted: 26-Sep-04 21:58   »» 
There is a mins simulator somewhere with free bar springs and this limitation removed.



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